37signals makes tens of millions in profit every year but Jason Fried (@jasonfried) isn’t all that interested in running a business. Instead, he cares most about making great products—products that are centered around a single, coherent idea. These products are complete wholes, where each piece matters—like a Frank Lloyd Wright house or a vintage car. But how do you create products like that? In this conversation I got the chance to talk to Jason about what two decades of building @37signals has been like—and how to build products that have soul. As the CEO and cofounder of the company behind @basecamp, @heyhey, and @rails, Jason was one of my earliest entrepreneurial heroes, so having him on @every’s AI & I was a true delight. Here’s what we talked about: - Build something so whole you can’t pull it apart. After more than two decades of running 37signals, Jason’s biggest lesson is about wholeness. He believes a great product is like a Frank Lloyd Wright house—every part, from the sink to the color of the floor, flows from one idea; change one piece, and it stops being the same thing. - Design software that feels as good as it works. Jason spends the first 10 minutes of the episode talking about watches, cars, and architecture—but he’s really talking about software. He wants his products to feel as good as driving a car where the controls are exactly where they should be, or walking through a beautiful space, natural light streaming through the windows. - Build what feels true, especially when you don’t know where it’s going. Jason thinks we’re living through “the age of undifferent,” where so much software looks the same: thin gray lines, muted colors, the same tired templates. But that sameness, he says, is an opportunity. The only way to stand out is to build from who you are, even when you’re not sure where it’s going. - The case for AI that maximizes meaning. The engineers at 37signals don’t use AI to write code; instead, they keep it to the edges, to look up API calls or handle the tedious parts of their workflow. As Jason puts it, “If you’re a poet, you want to write poetry,” an approach that says a lot about how they use AI to deepen meaning. This is a must-watch for product builders who care as much about how things feel as what they do, and of course, 37signals fans everywhere. Watch below! Timestamps: Introduction: 00:00:32 What architecture, watches, and cars teach us about software: 00:02:06 How Jason thinks AI plays into product-building: 00:10:54 How developers at 37signals use AI: 00:20:58 Jason’s biggest realization after 26 years of running 37signals: 00:25:47 Where Jason thinks luck shaped his career: 00:29:58 What Jason would do if he were graduated into the AI boom: 00:32:41 Dan asks for advice on running a non-traditional company like Every: 00:37:22 Why staying true to yourself is the only way to build something lasting: 00:46:39 Wholeness as the north star for building products—and companies: 00:49:38